Curse

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Dec 29, 2006, 01:56 AM // 01:56

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/inflation Seems to me that all but a select few items are all going down in prices. This is not inflation. With the exception of nightfall skins and ecto, almost everything is going down.

@HT ingram: congrats on missing the entire point of the thread.

Malice Black · Dec 29, 2006, 03:01 AM // 03:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by leprekan

Actually you are wrong. Those days were good for people wanting to make money not just those that had it. If you have millions you would rather spend 200 gold for a sup absorb not 100k plus. Sure the rich will get richer in that system BUT the average Joe had a chance to apply themselves and join their ranks.Now you have people able to get almost anything for next to nothing. Which is great right? Till they need to buy armor and cap sigs/skills or dare I say a title like treasure hunter. Where does that money come from now? Unless a stock holder in Anet .. please don't spew their doctrine on how they want to make money. It is laughable to say that an adventure game is aimed at a casual gamer ... the game isn't but they sure as hell are happy when people pay for it and don't use their bandwidth.

Guru favorite or not you shouldn't have thrown in that go play wow line.

It was a general comment of the past days not just the 100k+ for sup asorbs..everyone knows sup asorb sucks and only idiots paid 100k for it.

This game was designed as a casual game..play it for a few months then put it on the shelf with the other games then go back to it when you feel like it..that is a casual game it does not matter if it is an online game or not.

Where did I mention WoW? I just said if you don't like the direction the game is going go buy another.

Guru favorite? lol hardly...most of the "top brass" would boot me out given the chance.

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Dec 29, 2006, 03:48 AM // 03:48

Sup absorbs suck? Something tells me you never have and never will go very far in this game if you understand mechanics that little (now, maybe they weren't worth 100k compared to major, but they definitely didn't suck...).

capitalist · Dec 29, 2006, 05:34 AM // 05:34

Why do people still talk about the economy? Everything in this thread... that's right, all written before. Search? Not needed, just click to page two if this subforum, I am sure there is a thread with a title like:

"Rich People Suck"
"Why does the GW Economy Suck?"
"GW, not really for the casual player"

7resign

Ellington · Dec 29, 2006, 08:45 AM // 08:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by capitalist

Why do people still talk about the economy?

Because it's still broken.

Aegeroth · Dec 29, 2006, 01:45 PM // 13:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ellington

Because it's still broken.

And will it ever be fixed?

No, of course not.
Why?
1) Too hard for ANet.
2) We whine and whine whine and whine whine and whine whine and whine whine and whine whine and whine whine and whine, and you get my point.
3) If something changes for the better of the rich, what do the casual players do? Whine.
4) If something changes for the better of the casual players, what do the rich do? Whine.
5) Were human, being human all of us (with possible little expections) are greedy.

So there you have it folks.
This problem will never get fixed.
And so you know what, lets keep pointing fingers, we can do it until the game dies and- hey, guess what.
The Problem will still be there.

So please people, put your fingers down, and stop saying Economics 101, and stop Tutoring each other, and for god's almighty sake...
Stop Whining!!!!!!

I get by perfectly fine enjoying the game as it comes of 500g Armor and a Green weapon. And im only human.

--Edit--

Sorry that post may have been a bit heavy, but the moment i read the first page just got sick of more Economy in Guild Wars topics, my apologies for any form of whatever taken as offense.

w00t! · Dec 29, 2006, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aegeroth

So there you have it folks.
This problem will never get fixed.

So please people, put your fingers down, and stop saying Economics 101, and stop Tutoring each other, and for god's almighty sake...
Stop Whining!!!!!!

I agree with your sentiment, but still contend that the economy isn't broken. Maybe that's because I used to be a commodities trader in real life (that place in Chicago called the Board of Trade).

The economy experiences both inflation and deflation at various times. Rago's flame staff is a good example of this. It went way up, then way down, and now back up to about 80k.

All you have to do is to trade the trends; it just doesn't matter what the trend happens to be. When I was a pit trader I couldn't care less which way the market was moving. I bought it on the way up, and sold it on the way down.

Guild wars isn't perfect, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. Of course, and auction house would be nice, but gwguru auctions fills in that gap rather well.

Big_Iron · Dec 29, 2006, 05:34 PM // 17:34

I have no complaints. I've made my fair share just playing the game and barely farming at all. Though, I did get caught up in the Tombs B/P frenzy for a little while. Anyway, I've got all I want or need for all my chars at the moment. All I want is a better way to trade. But hey, it's a game. I'm not losing any sleep over it.

quickmonty · Dec 29, 2006, 05:39 PM // 17:39

The economy is what A-net wants it to be. They can increase/decrease drops, put more gold sinks into the game, and (if they really want to) adjust prices at traders and merchants. If you don't like it, that doesn't mean that it is broken or needs to be fixed.

It is much easier to sail with the wind then against it.

The Herbalizer · Dec 29, 2006, 09:18 PM // 21:18

LOLOLOLOLOL @ people saying the economy is broken. The Guild Wars economy sucks to be "1337" in now. You just gotta look at how many of the super rich actually play it now to realise it is at its best for the casual gamer: -

Nefastaru = Gone
Coolyguy = Gone
Lady Guns = Gone
Akhelius = Said he was guna quit
Road Runa = Gone
Bootytang = Gone
Baruzar = Gone
Chaos Theory P V P = Told by a friend he quit
Fondie = Gone
Der Linke Magier = Havnt seen online in a while
Love Guild Wars = Gone

The list goes on.

The Guild Wars economy is like the best economy for a casual gamer. The only items which are difficult to obtain are low req perfect Crystalline swords and nerfed items i.e. unconditional weapons. Any good warrior uses high swordsmanship attribute points so a req 11-13 15>50 Crystalline sword is easily obtained and usuable. If people want to use a low req one for flexibity then a 14>50 purple or gold one would suffice as the difference between 14>50 and 15>50 is almost non-existant.

People whine and whine about how they can only play an hour a day and they have real life commitments so high prices are unfair. Well you must really suck at computer games to be unable to make gold in a game where it is so easy to do. It is rediculous to say that making a million gold is hard to do. I would be embarassed to say I was unable to do it. If you dont have the intelligence or an entrepreneurial mind then you really cannot winge about not being able to make gold as that is your fault. You dont see people who are not intelligent demanding top grades to allow them into top universities/colleges. You just got to accept your place in life and realise that if you are unable to work out how to make gold then you really dont deserve the luxurious items in Guild Wars. You dont need desirable skins and you certainly dont need perfect, low req desirable skins. With the exception of perhaps req 8 15>50 / 15% -5 / 15% -10al Crystalline Swords and the tiny number of unconditional weapons on active accounts there is nothing difficult to obtain in Guild Wars now.

O yeah, once you become so rediculously rich that you own virtually everything you could possibly want and have done everything else you want to do Guild Wars becomes boring very quickly. There is very little excitement in knowing that nothing is unobtainable to you. For me I had pvped enough and had experienced Heroes Ascent, Random Arena and GvG sufficiently enough. I had quested in Guild Wars to death and my last real enjoyment was collecting items. However, once I had obtained everything I wanted and knew that the items in Nightfall and Factions were not particularly rare I got bored. Hence why I play WoW now. Even in WoW which is meant to be a lose your life to get nice stuff type of game I find it easy to make gold very casually. Epic items are meant to be the rarest and "1337est" weapons yet at level 14 out of a total of 60 levels I can afford to buy several :S

This thread should not be entitled "Guild Wars Economy: Who's to Blame?" but "Guild Wars Economy: Who's to Congratulate?"

I bet most of the people whining and crying about grind and it being unfair that there are expensive items wernt around when things were rediculously expensive. Try 17k ish Ectos, 100k +30Hp Sword Mod, 10/10 non-max pvp skin staffs for 150k, +44 Hp Enchant -2 Dmg Enchant Req 8 Tall Shield for 600k, +30Hp-2Dmg Stance Req 10 (I think) Eternal Shield for 5 million gold, any perfect weapon being rediculously expensive.

You think now is bad try the Summer/Autumn of Guild Wars first year. Virtually anything gold was worth something. You are soooo rediculously lucky to be able to buy virtually every skinned weapon with perfect stats for such little sums of gold. I remember selling a 17<50 non-max Sephis Axe for 30k now you would have to merch it as it would never sell. The least desirable bow skins such as Shot Bow with perfect stats would sell for several hundred thousand gold now they sell for like 5k ish. To say the economy is broken is perpostrous. The economy is at its best for a casual gamer. For someone like me who loves rare and expensive items it is awful but there are other games which suit me better even though I prefer the items in Guild Wars to those in other games.

Making gold however is harder due to the fact that virtually every inperfect item is worthless now. Take a +32 Hp Enchant -2 Dmg Enchant Req 10 Tall Shield I once sold for 40k now it would be merchant food. In the past any gold item would sell. I remember selling 'while hexed' inperfect hammers for like 10k. Now virtually no hammers sell and those which do dont fetch large amounts of gold.

The Guild Wars economy is at its best for casual gamers and there are only a handful of items which I consider difficult to obtain. However, with the increased ease at obtaining what you want it also takes away an area which many people once enjoyed. For example, I used to love obtaining nice items however once I got rich enough to buy anything I want it no longer was as fun. Through Anet making it easier to obain virtually anything you want it also means people no longer get as much enjoyment through collecting items. Hence why virtually all of the people who collected rare and expensive items no longer play Guild Wars.

idicious · Dec 29, 2006, 09:19 PM // 21:19

The idea just sprung to mind, might be utter nonsence but non the less: I think ecto's are materials like that are kept arteficially high so they can be used and kept being used as a trading material (since that's what every very rich GW player has basicly all his money in) I mean how many people really want ecto to get FoW armour? Demand is very low on it compared to say iron ingots but because demand is high on it for trading purposes, it is in essence arteficially being kept high.

Akhilleus · Dec 29, 2006, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Herbalizer

LOLOLOLOLOL @ people saying the economy is broken. The Guild Wars economy sucks to be "1337" in now. You just gotta look at how many of the super rich actually play it now to realise it is at its best for the casual gamer: -

Nefastaru = Gone
Coolyguy = Gone
Lady Guns = Gone
Akhelius = Said he was guna quit
Road Runa = Gone
Bootytang = Gone
Baruzar = Gone
Chaos Theory P V P = Told by a friend he quit
Fondie = Gone
Der Linke Magier = Havnt seen online in a while
Love Guild Wars = Gone

The list goes on.

The Guild Wars economy is like the best economy for a casual gamer. The only items which are difficult to obtain are low req perfect Crystalline swords and nerfed items i.e. unconditional weapons. Any good warrior uses high swordsmanship attribute points so a req 11-13 15>50 Crystalline sword is easily obtained and usuable. If people want to use a low req one for flexibity then a 14>50 purple or gold one would suffice as the difference between 14>50 and 15>50 is almost non-existant.

People whine and whine about how they can only play an hour a day and they have real life commitments so high prices are unfair. Well you must really suck at computer games to be unable to make gold in a game where it is so easy to do. It is rediculous to say that making a million gold is hard to do. I would be embarassed to say I was unable to do it. If you dont have the intelligence or an entrepreneurial mind then you really cannot winge about not being able to make gold as that is your fault. You dont see people who are not intelligent demanding top grades to allow them into top universities/colleges. You just got to accept your place in life and realise that if you are unable to work out how to make gold then you really dont deserve the luxurious items in Guild Wars. You dont need desirable skins and you certainly dont need perfect, low req desirable skins. With the exception of perhaps req 8 15>50 / 15% -5 / 15% -10al Crystalline Swords and the tiny number of unconditional weapons on active accounts there is nothing difficult to obtain in Guild Wars now.

O yeah, once you become so rediculously rich that you own virtually everything you could possibly want and have done everything else you want to do Guild Wars becomes boring very quickly. There is very little excitement in knowing that nothing is unobtainable to you. For me I had pvped enough and had experienced Heroes Ascent, Random Arena and GvG sufficiently enough. I had quested in Guild Wars to death and my last real enjoyment was collecting items. However, once I had obtained everything I wanted and knew that the items in Nightfall and Factions were not particularly rare I got bored. Hence why I play WoW now. Even in WoW which is meant to be a lose your life to get nice stuff type of game I find it easy to make gold very casually. Epic items are meant to be the rarest and "1337est" weapons yet at level 14 out of a total of 60 levels I can afford to buy several :S

This thread should not be entitled "Guild Wars Economy: Who's to Blame?" but "Guild Wars Economy: Who's to Congratulate?"

I bet most of the people whining and crying about grind and it being unfair that there are expensive items wernt around when things were rediculously expensive. Try 17k ish Ectos, 100k +30Hp Sword Mod, 10/10 non-max pvp skin staffs for 150k, +44 Hp Enchant -2 Dmg Enchant Req 8 Tall Shield for 600k, +30Hp-2Dmg Stance Req 10 (I think) Eternal Shield for 5 million gold, any perfect weapon being rediculously expensive.

You think now is bad try the Summer/Autumn of Guild Wars first year. Virtually anything gold was worth something. You are soooo rediculously lucky to be able to buy virtually every skinned weapon with perfect stats for such little sums of gold. I remember selling a 17<50 non-max Sephis Axe for 30k now you would have to merch it as it would never sell. The least desirable bow skins such as Shot Bow with perfect stats would sell for several hundred thousand gold now they sell for like 5k ish. To say the economy is broken is perpostrous. The economy is at its best for a casual gamer. For someone like me who loves rare and expensive items it is awful but there are other games which suit me better even though I prefer the items in Guild Wars to those in other games.

Making gold however is harder due to the fact that virtually every inperfect item is worthless now. Take a +32 Hp Enchant -2 Dmg Enchant Req 10 Tall Shield I once sold for 40k now it would be merchant food. In the past any gold item would sell. I remember selling 'while hexed' inperfect hammers for like 10k. Now virtually no hammers sell and those which do dont fetch large amounts of gold.

The Guild Wars economy is at its best for casual gamers and there are only a handful of items which I consider difficult to obtain. However, with the increased ease at obtaining what you want it also takes away an area which many people once enjoyed. For example, I used to love obtaining nice items however once I got rich enough to buy anything I want it no longer was as fun. Through Anet making it easier to obain virtually anything you want it also means people no longer get as much enjoyment through collecting items. Hence why virtually all of the people who collected rare and expensive items no longer play Guild Wars.

exactly, few remember the old days. if people think its hard to afford stuff now, they need to get a time-machine into last year.
and its not that "you're an idiot if you spent 100k on weapon upgrades" its if you actually wanted weapon upgrades AT ALL, you better plan to spend 100k.
in this time period it was easier than any other time in GW to go from rags to riches...and easier to stay rags to rags...depending on your abilities.

Quote:

Originally Posted by leprekan

Actually you are wrong. Those days were good for people wanting to make money not just those that had it. If you have millions you would rather spend 200 gold for a sup absorb not 100k plus. Sure the rich will get richer in that system BUT the average Joe had a chance to apply themselves and join their ranks.Now you have people able to get almost anything for next to nothing. Which is great right? Till they need to buy armor and cap sigs/skills or dare I say a title like treasure hunter. Where does that money come from now? Unless a stock holder in Anet .. please don't spew their doctrine on how they want to make money. It is laughable to say that an adventure game is aimed at a casual gamer ... the game isn't but they sure as hell are happy when people pay for it and don't use their bandwidth.

yep.
its better now for people who want to skate by with no effort...but for players who want to climb the ranks, it is far, far worse. what people dont understand is that as a whole, its harder to make money when things are cheaper.
you could ALWAYS go bottom-of-the-barrel, ignoring rare skins and spending money on collectors items and droks armor only (many of the now wealthy did so in their early days to save money...myself included), but now that msot items are in the 5-50k range, its harder for people who want to get rich, to actually do so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coridan

that is too funny...saying that Anet won't make an error that will cause a rare skin to drop somewhere else is so much BS...anyone remember the ecto fiasco when the servers were rolled back...also fella i seriously doubt that all traders or HoHers or whoever gets the godly items your are talking about trade at Guru...I mean come on do you really think that everyone that plays the game actually comes here to sell there junk??? Get a clue! I played the dammed game for 3 months before I even heard of guildwarsguru.com and I KNOW that i sold crap to merchants that some people would consider "godly". So as far as you saying only 19 or how ever many Perfect Crystalines have dropped in the entire life time of GW is just plain ridiculous...please excuse my spelling and or grammar errors...and excuse my "tone" that type of stuff just pisses me off..

it doesnt matter if people sell here or not...i can assure you the VAST majority of top-notch rare items do NOT occur on GWG, yet most high-end traders know about the sales anyway. its called a traders network. and while i will concede its impossible to know for sure, i can guarantee you that the few renowned traders of old that are left have a FAR better idea as to the numbers than anyone else that plays the game.
before you spew your opinions, try having a resume` that can back them up?
i was a VERY successful trader (beyond your possible comprehension), and while i will not claim to know EXACTLY how many of any particular item exist in the game (because it is impossible without an anet-endorsed figure), it is, however, very possible to get an EXTREMELY good idea...especially when the particular item in question sells for over 5m a pop at almost a minimum.
i, personally know, if X9 8 15.50s to exist, there are probably more, but probably not many more than that.
as an extremely successful trader i made it my business to know who had what, who was selling, who wasnt, who they sold to, who they bought from, etc.
if a high-end trader is unable to keep track of the extremely rare and valuable items and who possesses them, it makes it very difficult to operate effectivly. and the trader network that existed in this game was absolutly massive. if an 8 15>50 crystalline dropped from an HoH chest, interested parties would often know about it in hours, if not minutes; and rarely did it take more than a few days.

Malice Black · Dec 30, 2006, 02:40 AM // 02:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gimme Money Plzkthx

Sup absorbs suck? Something tells me you never have and never will go very far in this game if you understand mechanics that little (now, maybe they weren't worth 100k compared to major, but they definitely didn't suck...).

LOL I don't understand the game? been playing 16 odd months made countless trades and made vast amounts of money...sup asorb sucks. It was good to farm from ettins and thats it.

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Dec 30, 2006, 03:28 AM // 03:28

^lol

Herbalizer and akhilleus, I <3 you for all that you just said, even though I just skimmed it. I got the gist, and well said.

CagedinSanity · Dec 30, 2006, 03:53 AM // 03:53

I don't really blame it on anybody. The economy seems normal to me. If there's a lot of something, price goes down. Looks normal to me. (After the triple green drop weekend, I saw the scar eater go down from 25k to 15k - it was the only time i could ever buy one.)

The only thing I hate when people run around flaunting their wealth. I can never seem to make over 20k without having something to spend it on whether it's a weapon or new armor. Unless it's given to me, I'll be constantly broke.

lilnate22 · Dec 30, 2006, 04:36 AM // 04:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by =HT=Ingram

EVERYTHING is worthless has been since day 1. Its a perceived make believe value that is on these skins for want of a better word. I don't want to flame this but hearing this crap always pisses me off.
Look at it this way OK

day one 0 of item x in the game.
someone finds one in a drop or chest or boss drops.
Then there is 1 of item x in game. Max price for item achieved.
days go on more people find it.
then there is 50 of item x in the game. Max price prob at least 1/2 what it was the first day.
months go by and there is 100s of item x in the game.
Price is now prob 1/4 what it was on day 1.
Months more go by and there will be 1000s of the item in the game.
Then millions and so on. they are not destroyed you see. they can only go up in supply, not down unless someone sells to the merchant. Which is unlikely. But even still unless its done in HUGE amounts as it is with ecto and gems for large amounts of Gold. then the supply remains growing forever.

Now this is Econ 101 again... as supply goes up, price falls, and demand decreases. that's just the way it is for EVERY item in the game no matter how cool you THINK it is.

By game design NOTHING in the game was ever to be traded for amounts over 100K, this is FACT. But the greedy idiots in the game that play this MARKET game instead of Guild Wars believe otherwise. Fact, if there is something going for 2million gold, wait 3 months it will be far far under that if not under 100k itself. that's for EVERY item in the game. and every new item in the game. So never purchase something for ungodly amounts thinking you will be able to flip your investment in 6 months time. It just does not happen. In fact its impossible to happen unless the supply of the item is cut off completely. Never to return. I'm thinking of things like Peppermint candy canes here... In 3 or 4 years time if those kind of CC never return they will be astronomical. Or something like the -50 and -20 health item if it is ever taken out of the game those items will sky rocket. if they are allowed to continue to exist. Many rumors in fact had started to circulate ages ago trying to convince people that the items were removed in an effort to get them to jump in price, and it was 100% bogus. so that's something to be aware of too.

Lets put it this way... if you have 2 million gold in hand ready to waste on anything in this game, well you deserve to loose your shirt for doing it. cause you are either a bot, a bot wannabe, or a gold buyer. there is no reason at all in this game to ever purchase anything for much over 100k even for the vainest of Vain. and those that DO are insane and supporting a gold reseller market I can 100% guarantee.

umm lie... i do believe victos went up after a wile from the update :P

arcanemacabre · Dec 30, 2006, 05:01 AM // 05:01

I'd say, if there are a handful of people claiming stuff is too expensive and they can't afford crap, and there are a handful of people claiming stuff is too cheap and their riches are now pointless, and the rest are saying it's fine, then the economy is perfect.

Tommy · Dec 30, 2006, 06:05 AM // 06:05

IDK, but i found the game more interesting atleast for me when everything is expensive. Now i could afford anything but crytalline sword but i am not happy. Maybe just me. I remember the the excitement i got from the old days when i first got a hp+29 req8 gold eternal shield for 100k+40ecto:L..
Now i got a req9 hp30 dam-5(20%) for 100k+5ecto but It seems not as exciting as the old req8 hp+29 shield>

..

capitalist · Dec 30, 2006, 06:07 AM // 06:07

^^

Exactly... it made the game fun to have to work for something.

Faith Angelis · Dec 30, 2006, 07:49 PM // 19:49

Some great economic theory in this thread, and surprisingly accurate overall. The only problem is, the rules of economics quoted here don't work in the world of Guild Wars (or at least, not completely).

Simply, real-world economics isn't mappable onto what is essentially a rudimentary simulation of an economic system.

First, unlike the real world, the value of currency never changes. 1g will always be 1g, and will always be 1% of the price of a salvage kit, and so on. This essentially means that there is no inherent loss in amassing large amounts of idle wealth, as their would be (albeit gradually) in the real world.

Second, there is no cost of living in Guild Wars. Sure, you have to buy the occasional salvage and ID kit, but after the initial outlay, the cost of continuing to 'live in the manner to which you are accustomed' (i.e. play at the level you have achieved) is negligable. For example, in the real world, armor and equipment would gradually wear out and need to be replaced, you would need to eat and drink, find and maintain shelter and so on.

In the real world, these factors among others affect the universal rule of supply and demand, where consumers temper their buying habits based on their needs versus their resources. In the rudimentary economy of Guild Wars, there is no need-driven purchasing. All purchases (beyond the initial outlay mentioned above) are driven by want, therefore supply and demand act unbridled in the economy, and you'll find both extremely high pricing and extremely low pricing on very similar items.

Props to ANet, then, that they have very insightfully made the initial outlay to reach a satisfactory standard at level twenty not only independant of supply and demand, but independant of currency completely (think collector weapons and armour, plus drops).

As green weapons (for example) become more common, the laws of supply and demand inevitably lower their prices, making them more available to players of lower wealth. The only glitch in this system is sellers who are unwilling to lower the prices of their stock. With green weapons, this will probably lead to them not finding buyers, and consequently being forced to lower their prices.

However, with extremely rare items like the Crystalline Swords oft-mentioned in this thread, a small number of sellers literally control the market, and will keep prices very high as long as they can.

So, we have an economy of consumers who only increase in wealth (unless they want to spend it, remember I pointed out the difference between want and need) and suppliers who have no overheads to supply their goods (save for the time spent farming them). This is neither healthy or unhealthy from a nuetral point of view - it's simply unrealistic, and so it should be, it's a game!

However, the people who stand to lose (either wealth or potential wealth) are those at either exteme end of the spectrum - the minority of sellers with high supply (think green item farmers dismayed at dropping prices) and the minority of buyers with high demand (the guy who just has to have his Crystalline Sword and Dwarven Axe, for example).

In short, the economy of the game is fluctuating, as real economies do, but fluctuating with increasing tendency towards a certain level of pricing based on supply and demand (again, as real economies do). The only people who lose out are those who farm huge amonts of greens (unwise investment) and those who want the rarest items (value inconsistent with 'worth').

The great thing about the Guild Wars economy is that you dont have to buy into it at all if you don't want to; and that is a credit to good game design, and designers!